Switching from Defence into Attack

[slim shady]

Right before Geoff has a moan, here's a new topic.

I don't think we coach defenders to be attack minded enough in this country. We still seem to drum it into players "If in doubt whack it out" which in my opinion is such a negative thing to do as it give possession away very cheaply. (That's not to say I want to see my centre back doing drag backs on the edge of the box)

I'd much rather players think about "Risk and reward" when they are playing. If a player plays a short pass across the 6 yard box there's a big risk that it will get cut out and the opposition will score, and the reward (maybe keeping possession) in attempting such a pass is very minimal.

I have coloured in an 18 yard box and defensive third using the "Traffic light" philosophy of where the greatest risk poses itself. The 6 yard box is red moving towards amber as you move away from goal. In my opinion the greatest risk for a goal being scored is in the 6 yard box, but there are also areas outside the box i.e outside the 18 yard box on the flanks where a goal is most likely to be created from. So I have these areas as red as well as to give possession away in these areas might lead to a scoring opportunity being created i.e a cross.

If you can get players thinking "risk and reward" hopefully they will start to evaluate where and when they can attack from and may start to think more attack minded. When they attack they should do it at pace. They also need to have good technique to be able to play out from the back at pace especially centre backs who we tend ignore as being able to play, but a good ball playing centre back can be the fulcrum for everything that starts from the back as everything is in front of him.

Over to you....

Steve

[crewealexfc]

That sounds like a really good idea, not heard of that before.

When i'm coaching, i try to tell players that if they relax when their on the ball, they'll find that they'll see more players in space, and more routes away from danger.

When i'm playing, i tell myself to relax, and it helps me a lot. I think the 'Risk and Reward' will certainly improve a player, in terms of dealing with pressure.

I would much rather see a player play a pass than boot into row z, as i think thats just gifting possession back to the oppo, and keeping your own defence under pressure.

[Tony Minoldo]

I think we might have mixed to things, here? I encouraged my centre-halves to attack from the back with the ball at their feet, one at time, though, and when there is space.

In fact, I've coined this phrase that repeat to the players quite often: 'in the defensive third 10 % risk, 90 % safety, in the mid-third 50-50, in the attacking third 90% risk - 10 % safety'. In my teams, usually one of the centre-halves scores a few goals each season (Uzi is in 6, I think, and Ben Crawford from my Chi City U18 has socred 4 in 6 matches since I took charge of that team.

Relating this topic to my Plan A - Plan B one, sometimes we concede space to the opponents' centre-halves when they have the ball at their feet, we just don't pressure them at all. In most cases, they don't know what to do with the ball, and because most are not patient even if they're winning, after maybe one lateral passing (we might press the full back, though) the ball goes back to the centre-half, who just whacks it as far as he can--- To the delight of my defenders and keeper, quite good in the air. No once have I seen a central defender run forward with the ball, even though he has the space.

[slim shady]

I think we might have mixed to things, here? I encouraged my centre-halves to attack from the back with the ball at their feet, one at time, though, and when there is space.

In fact, I've coined this phrase that repeat to the players quite often: 'in the defensive third 10 % risk, 90 % safety, in the mid-third 50-50, in the attacking third 90% risk - 10 % safety'. In my teams, usually one of the centre-halves scores a few goals each season (Uzi is in 6, I think, and Ben Crawford from my Chi City U18 has socred 4 in 6 matches since I took charge of that team.

Relating this topic to my Plan A - Plan B one, sometimes we concede space to the opponents' centre-halves when they have the ball at their feet, we just don't pressure them at all. In most cases, they don't know what to do with the ball, and because most are not patient even if they're winning, after maybe one lateral passing (we might press the full back, though) the ball goes back to the centre-half, who just whacks it as far as he can--- To the delight of my defenders and keeper, quite good in the air. No once have I seen a central defender run forward with the ball, even though he has the space.

Tony,

In a way you are correct having re-read my post.

What I was trying to get across is that we don't coach defenders to be attack minded enough in my opinion....it's always safety first.

What I was alluding to is to try and get players thinking in terms of "risk and reward"....if the players assesses that there is a high risk in what he is about to do he may think the risk isn't worth it. Take for instance....a right back. He may look at a situation and think he can sprint up the line on the overlap to support the attack, thereby giving greater numbers going forward, but if he isn't confident that one of the centre backs or midfielders will drop in to his vacated position, he may assess that the risk is too great. That's where the great Dutch side of the 70's and the modern Brazil side is so good as they try and play total football, with players comfortably dropping into someone else's position which in turn gives greater confidence to players to attack.

Hope I haven't wandered too far from where I was trying to get to...

[Tony Minoldo]

What I was trying to get across is that we don't coach defenders to be attack minded enough in my opinion....it's always safety first.

Steve,

Partially agree, because I'm a safety first lad, but I encouraged the players to think by themselves and read the situation. I mean, I don't want my centre-half to start dribbling in the edge of my area, but I do encourage a fast passing with limited number of touches on the ball (in my defensive third) and mostly running into space from the back, that may create some surprise and add numbers in midfield.

Another point is that many players and managers at the amateur level don't appreciate how important is to create space: for instance, imagine a situation where a midfielder runs with the ball at his feet, and his full back is overlapping him: if the midfielder decides for any other option rather than play the overlap, most full backs would get frustrated, without realising that their movement had (or should have) taken a defender out of the area where the ball is, thus creating space for the ball carrier or another team mate and a distraction for the defending team (including the goalkeeper).

Thoughts?

[slim shady]

What I was trying to get across is that we don't coach defenders to be attack minded enough in my opinion....it's always safety first.

Steve,

Partially agree, because I'm a safety first lad, but I encouraged the players to think by themselves and read the situation. I mean, I don't want my centre-half to start dribbling in the edge of my area, but I do encourage a fast passing with limited number of touches on the ball (in my defensive third) and mostly running into space from the back, that may create some surprise and add numbers in midfield.

Another point is that many players and managers at the amateur level don't appreciate how important is to create space: for instance, imagine a situation where a midfielder runs with the ball at his feet, and his full back is overlapping him: if the midfielder decides for any other option rather than play the overlap, most full backs would get frustrated, without realising that their movement had (or should have) taken a defender out of the area where the ball is, thus creating space for the ball carrier or another team mate and a distraction for the defending team (including the goalkeeper).

Thoughts?

Totally agree....i don't want my centre backs playing drag backs on the end of the box, but that's where the "Risk and reward" mentality comes in.

Totally agree with the creating space analogy.

One goal I have been trying to get hold of on video or DVD is the goal Jon Arne Riise scored for Liverpool against Chelsea in the Charity Shield. A large portion of the goal was down to the movement of the breaking right side player (not sure if it Pennant or bellamy). But his run took the defender away from Riise opening up the space for a shot.

Steve.

[The Horse]

A bit off topic but I think the standard of a lot of pitches seriously affects playing out from defence as players regularily get caught out with the "run" of the pitch affecting passing and running with the ball. This may not be so prevalent in County 1 but in the standard we play in I have all but given up encouraging this type of play as all it does is breed nervousness and players confidence in there own ability goes (which goes against everything I believe in, in football which is sad really).

We have lost three games this year because we have tried to play football on terrible pitches against teams who have taken a more direct "percentage" approach. When we have played conditions, we have looked a decent side but at the standard we are i genuinally dont think you can always get away with playing out from the back. If we were playing on good pitches I would drum this style into my players but at times you are fighting a losing battle.

Couldnt agree more about space - I have a massive thing about players standing still and players not wanting the ball - I havent achieved it with the team I manage at the moment but hopefully will soon!!!

[The Horse]

Tony wrote

To the delight of my defenders and keeper, quite good in the air. No once have I seen a central defender run forward with the ball, even though he has the space.

Do you not remember me playing against you when we had a player sent off - I played as a Defender stroke holding midfielder and I thought it worked - we played better with 10 than 11!!

[slim shady]

A bit off topic but I think the standard of a lot of pitches seriously affects playing out from defence as players regularily get caught out with the "run" of the pitch affecting passing and running with the ball. This may not be so prevalent in County 1 but in the standard we play in I have all but given up encouraging this type of play as all it does is breed nervousness and players confidence in there own ability goes (which goes against everything I believe in, in football which is sad really).

We have lost three games this year because we have tried to play football on terrible pitches against teams who have taken a more direct "percentage" approach. When we have played conditions, we have looked a decent side but at the standard we are i genuinally dont think you can always get away with playing out from the back. If we were playing on good pitches I would drum this style into my players but at times you are fighting a losing battle.

Couldnt agree more about space - I have a massive thing about players standing still and players not wanting the ball - I havent achieved it with the team I manage at the moment but hopefully will soon!!!

Obviously it's horses for courses (pardon the pun). If the pitch surface is poor there is a greater chance the defender will get undone by the pitch. I think a lot of pitches even at county 1 are very poor. The pitch we played on a week ago at Eastbourne United was shocking which did contribute to our undoing. It's one of the things I find strange. The FA want covered stands, hard standing etc. but they and the League turn a blind eye to the condition of a lot of the pitches, which has got to be wrong.

However. If you work a lot with your defenders on their technique the chances of them getting caught by the pitch are lessoned.

[Tony Minoldo]

Do you not remember me playing against you when we had a player sent off - I played as a Defender stroke holding midfielder and I thought it worked - we played better with 10 than 11!!

Horse,

Not that you lads attacked too much, in that game, especially when you were playing with 10 men. However, you're right, you attacked from the back, but to me it looked more as you were a defensive mid rather than a defender (I'm not sure what do you mean by 'defender stroke holding midfielder').

I think Slim Shady is making a good point when he says we managers should try to develop players' technique. I also have to point out that pitches in England -at the WSPL- are a lot better than the ones I grew up playing on in Argentina, which were not only irregular, but also very dry and with parts where the grass would never grow. Nevertheless, the football culture there was -and I believe still is- that you're a good player only if you possess a good technique, never mind in which position you play.

Players standing still??? Gosh, I wish I had someone filming the matches to show the players afterwards what they were doing...

Slim Shady, great point about the FA with their 'covered stans, bla-bla' but turning a blind eye to some playing surfaces looking like potato fields.

I will ended up with a complete different point: Bad pitches are the consequence of lack of care, which results from the lack of funding (to have at least a groundsman taking care of the pitch and to cover certain areas of it). Lack of funding is the direct result of poor attendance---Nevertheless, people love football in this country do they not?

The big problem I think nis the excess of football in TV, everyday, at different times. If the FA would set a limit to this (i.e. most matches at 1pm on Saturday afternoon, and all non-leagua games with a 3pm ko, I'm sure most people would go to see their local teams playing? Thus more funding from ticket sale, food and drink, more money to improve the pitch and the facilities???

I know, I should've started a new topic...

[The Horse]

I thought second half we attacked a lot and played a very dangerous game with most of the time 3 on 3 at the back - that gave you a lot of chances but we also had decent possession and some half chance ourselves.

With the comment I made above (playing out from back) I was trying to show an example of a team this year doing it, I was actually playing centre half that day but ended up playing both centre half when defending and holding midfielder when we were pushing forward to give us an extra number.

I agree coaches should work on technique but by the time you get players who are in there mid 20's, basic technique can not be improved by a massive amount in the time you have with the players especially as you are nearly always preparing for games, trying to get the team to gel and getting a style of play sorted. The key is to improve these techniques when players are young. I had a coach when I just started in senior football who was brilliant with young players and I remember him saying to one of our lads (right back) at half time that if he just hoofed the ball away again in the second half when he was not under pressure he would never play for him again but it really worked, the lad took great care of the ball and never panicked or rushed his clearances so it shows it can be done.

On the subject of pitches it is a real problem I think. I know you said it is the same in other countries and I agree but I still think its wrong. This season our biggest factor we have struggled to come to terms with is the state of some of the pitches we have played on (including our own) and some of them are in such a bad state that they are almost dangerous. Surely this can not be put down totally to the weather? I have played in Sussex all my life and we have had dry years and wet years but the pitches can never be described as good at some clubs. Surely some of the 9 odd billion used for the olympics could be channeled into playing surfaces in this country and when funds become available at clubs the FA should not be forcing them into putting a 200 seat stand in when the money could go on the pitch?

[****]

Do you not remember me playing against you when we had a player sent off - I played as a Defender stroke holding midfielder and I thought it worked - we played better with 10 than 11!!

The big problem I think nis the excess of football in TV, everyday, at different times. If the FA would set a limit to this (i.e. most matches at 1pm on Saturday afternoon, and all non-leagua games with a 3pm ko, I'm sure most people would go to see their local teams playing? Thus more funding from ticket sale, food and drink, more money to improve the pitch and the facilities???

I know, I should've started a new topic...

people would still go to watch the pro clubs and by the time they get home itll be the second half of the game, and thts assuming they dont go to the pub after the game, itll also mean people starting to drink earlier in the day meaning more drunken crime etc! just put all premiership matches on sundays if u ask me lol

[slim shady]

I totally agree that money from the Olympics and maybe the Iarq war could be better spent on helping to improve the state of the pitches in our country.

I played in Norway for 5 season and the facilities over there are miles better than what we have. Most clubs at the standard I played at over there (Dive 2 and 3) had at least to grass pitches and an all weather pitch.

I don't agree that you can't improve a players technique once they get to 20 years old. I do agree that there are other pressing issues (fitness, gelling a team etc.) that can limit you time to do it, but if the team and the individual players want to improve it can be done.

Going back to Norway, we used to train 4 times a week and it was all game / ball related. On that basis my technique improved vastly (some might not agree) and I was 30.

On that topic, I am hoping to set up a coaching clinic this summer for EP to concentrate on technique and fitness for a certain number of players. I am hoping to get 6-8 max players at a session to work on specifics of their game that btween us we feel needs improving before we come back for pre-season training.

Steve

[The Horse]

Agree Steve,

My point was timescales with the team (at most a couple of hours a week) not that you couldnt improve them if you have time to work (especially on a one to one level)

I think a lot of countries are miles ahead of us in terms of facilities and in time they will over take us (if they havent already!!)

The scandinavians seem to make facilities a big priority and they will reap the rewards.

I would love to play on good pitches every week and know that the standard of performance would increase by a massive amount (no-one would have an excuse for percentage, long ball football) but it just does not seem a priority in this country

[Tony Minoldo]

The big problem I think nis the excess of football in TV, everyday, at different times. If the FA would set a limit to this (i.e. most matches at 1pm on Saturday afternoon, and all non-leagua games with a 3pm ko, I'm sure most people would go to see their local teams playing? Thus more funding from ticket sale, food and drink, more money to improve the pitch and the facilities???

I know, I should've started a new topic...[/quote]

people would still go to watch the pro clubs and by the time they get home itll be the second half of the game, and thts assuming they dont go to the pub after the game, itll also mean people starting to drink earlier in the day meaning more drunken crime etc! just put all premiership matches on sundays if u ask me lol[/quote]

No, Coxy, I'm not talking about the Liverpool or the Pompey fan who goes regularly to the stadium to follow his team, but about people living in Pagham or Chichester who sit in the houses or local pubs to watch fooball rather than go and see their local teams.

Regarding drunken crime, if the police -maybe the judges?- would deal with them with stronger punishment---But unfortunately we live in a society where people get drunk for 'fun' from a very young age.


Regarding the comments by Steve and The Horse, some responsibility about players not daring more, surely come from the youth coaches with their 1 or 2 touch football...Did I mention that before? Where would Kaka' and Ronaldinho be if they'd had those coaches???

Horse, maybe you did attack more than I remember, I'll check my notes...

Steve, am I misunderstanding you, or you don't do any fitness without the ball?